Category: Cell Phone Talk
Hey all.
I've decided that it's time for a new phone, but I'm stuck between the iPhone or one of the android phones, both of which come with screenreaders.
If any of you have used a droid or a nexus one with talkback, what did you think? How useable is it?
Cheers.
I'm debating the same thing myself can't decide between the droid and the iphone and would like to hea what others think as well.
wow what is talkback? been wanting a droid phone for so long but did not think there was a screen reader.
There is, it's under Accessibility somewhere, but it's very lacking. It is about as good a reader as the iPhone is at multitasking. Well better, since it does actually read some things, but for the money you're not gonna like it because it's still missing a lot of basic functionality, lots of areas don't read yet. Promises are Android 2.1 will have a better reader, accessibility options.
yah good question. i might get a droyed after awhile because it is with Verizon. I have heard too that the accessibility feature of it needs to be improved which will hopefully come as apart of the next update.
Wow. Accessibility with the Droid? That's definitely news to me. I didn't know that it had any kind of screen reader. Hopefully they will make the proper improvements. That would be great.
I love Verizon, but the lack of accessible phones is aggravating.
For the meantime, I do fine with my EnV3, but it would be very nice to have a phone such as the Droid become accessible, especially for those of us who want to stay with Verizon and not switch to ATT for the iPhone.
Cheers for this robozork.
I'm torn between which device to get. I really don't want to support apple and some of the things they stand for. However, what the iPhone does, it does very well - e.g. reliable os, good screenreader, quick navigation, huge app catalogue etc.
I know people who don't really like apple but they have iPhones. The reason they give is because at the moment, it's the best phone you can get.
Not to mension that it opens up some doors for blind people as far as gps goes.
It opens no doors that Lodestone GPS which is free and works on Symbian phones doesn't already open. I'm not anti Apple, but they do have this tendency to support what's trendy (accessibility right now, at least in schools and government, is a requirement till Rush Limbaugh and Bill OReilly get the masses worked up over the blind lifestyle). Then they drop that market and move on. Their fanboys will not be always goggling over you and your ability to use their phone. Fandom is fleeting.
Naturally moving to a Linux-based platform is great, if only they would use it and multitask but don't think they won't cut out accessibility the same way they've cut out flash and other technologies. In the past Steve Jobs had a series of Macs shipped with no arrow keys and between System six or thereabouts and the early Leopard, you couldn't navigate with the keyboard at all, just as a means to promote the point and click interface.
Don't think they won't do this sort of thing again, use it sure, but do so with a bit of understanding rather than this fandom thinking where people think Apple is all about the blind and supporting us. We aren't shit on a pumphouse handle for them, as soon as it's no longer trendy / the way in for government contracts, we're out, and eithre the commercial readers or Google's Android or some other open source deal will be what we use. Do a look at Apple's history, not just therag mags they put out for believers
One thing to think about with most android phones is you're going to be paying for a complete $30 per month data package that talk back can't fully let you use. Their is no internet browser support, email is limited in support, many apps that you would need net for are verry limited in support. Its just not completely phesable to spend that much money on a feature that I can't use 5 percent of. In addition, many phone functions just arn't where you'd expect for a smartphone. Its like windows 200 narator or the older LG talking solutions, it works with a few select things (in comparrison to everything the phone could doo on its own. On the plus side, talkback is free and open source so who knows what we'll see from them in future.
To be honest, I had a similar debate with my self regarding what phone to get. it was between something win mo, something android, something simbion, or of corse, that Iphone 4 when it comes out. Right now, I don't have the cash to buy both a phone and a screen reader and in some cases many of the win mo and simbion phones are suffering from ageing software and hardware that might not really stand the test of time. Thus, winmo and simbion were elliminated. Android really is access wise, a "what could be in the future" type of device. While the screen reader available can manage some things, its more of a lets create as we go along. If I used an android phone, I'm not sure I'd be contented with waiting to see what the developers of an opensource screen readermay/may not choose to add when/where or that the project will be regularly updated and handled according to the claims of the developers. If they hit a wall and quit or if the developers get fired from google and no longer have rights to continue the work, I'm stuck with that "what if phone" that i'm paying for survices on I can't completely use.
I honestly didn't like the iphones at all. I wanted a machine that could multy task. The touch screen interface as well as some of the ways the iphone waspresented/used in day to day life didn't appeal to me and I wasn't sure what justified the hype. But, I decided I'd give it a try at an apple store back in januarry. I quickly acclomated to many things about the device and honestly, its a pirfectly viable solution now that Iphone OS 4 will allow multytasking. Not all apps will work and I hope the battery life on the devices gets better though honestly, using screen curtain will probably make the Iphone 4's new battery last longer...
Over all, it looks like the most viable option for my needes.
While I wish apple would continue their great work on access friendly solutions for all, I would agree with previous statements that when access friendlyness isn't trendy any longer, it will slip away from apple products unless we fight to keep it around and even then...
I know apple's a company and company's have a bottem line that may or may not carry access awairness/groath into the future but, right now, it looks like the better option for me.
Though honestly, I'd really like better voices on apples product. I don't hold this against android as much as the voices are freely made but apple has an extremely large range of voices to chose from to potentially optomize for iphone. I know that causts apple money but I'd pay for premium voices but, a better free voice in Iphone OS 4 would be amazing.
the Iphone's TTS package for english only takes up 3 MB of total space. It would be nice if apple gave users the choice to download a free higher quality voice/pay for something even better.
i see that to a point, size of bundled voice on the unit would be something they'd have to minimise as much as possible but I think they could bundle a 10 or 15 mb voice with out people makeing too much racket about it, after all, many use this voice for surtain functions on the device like reading back messages while driveing, guiding one threw voice survices on the phone, as well as interfaceing with other apps. But anyway, I realize I went hugely off topic here, I'm sorry.
Oh my god, that last poste was complete proof that i'm needing sleep verry verry badly, sorry about the typo's.
So Rumor has it taht apple really got into the accessibility game cuz a senior executive has a visually impaired child. True or not with the ground work appl has made in accessibility it would be hard for them to just cut it out of the product unless it came time for a a new OS and starting from scratch again , And when that time come comes in the distant future who knows what wil be available to us or if they wont include accessibility from the start. I am not a fan boy and don't always agree with apple but lets be honest they do things for a reason most of the times because they want them to not just work but work well, And apple is the company that much like their disallowance with flash would rather not include a screen reeader or magnifier if it was gonna bogg down the phone and make it sluggish to use as is the case with some Windows mobile and Nokia phones. .
Oh and seeing as how the iPhone comes with a maps application that accessible out of the box and free for basic GPS stuff its way better than the clugy stitch it together yourself solution that is loadstone and a much better value than Way Finder and Mobile Geo.
One thing I find fasinating is one of the main droid developers himself is blind. This being said, no way talkback can be considered much more than an LG phone with half built-in access at this point, so I guess my point is, I'd rather it be not included in a product then sort of included in a product. Say what you will but VO from day one on the 3gs was at lleast relevant.
I spent two weeks recently using a moto droid, and I found myself extremely dissatusfyed.
The droid device itself was nice and snappy and using TB was reasonably snappy but there was very little intuitivness if you will to using the access apps. I was able to manage email with some patients and trial and error but nothing like what can be accomplished with windows Mobile, which I believe is quickly becoming an erelevant platform, and Simbian and the iPhone. Currently, I'm using a Windows mobile device and MSP 2.0, I just didn't see enough in the MS 4 upgrade to justify 200 bucks. It was a sort of copy cat attempt at many of the ideas found in VO, and the support that used to be so forth coming from code factory is almost nonexistent.
I thought about taking a stab at a BB, but I distrust Humanware so furvently that that's pretty much out the window at this point as well. I mean come on $449 for a screen reader no demo just take our word, it'll meet all your needs. Sure, and as the singer sings, I've got some ocean front property in arizona from my front porch you can see the sea.
Thing is, folks, the iPhone 4 will be able to support 32 different Braille displays. I don't always agree with Apple myself, but i have to say that they're coming a long way with that iPhone. It will have a 5 megapixel camera, which probably will be able to work with the KNFB reader. Now let's see how the stupid Droid comes back. There are a lot of people I know who don't like that Droid.
That would be another good thing now that the camera is good enough if someone does a KNFB reader app for the iPhone and doesn't charge us $1000 for it either .
What people on here have said about Apple has merit. I didn't realize it's snappy. Now I'm with T-Mobile and I have the older dash with MobileSpeak 2.2 and while it works fine, I would not call it snappy by a long shot.
Apple devices have always been more computing appliances than traditional computers, in the PC sense. What I mean is, with Windows or Linux, you can stitch together whatever solution you want. Same goes for Symbian on mobile phones. Now if the Apple solution has everything you need and more (considering you'll grow into it), this isn't a problem. For that reason, I've been surprised over the years that until recently their marketing efforts were towards the elite artsy (very small) market.
I would say most if not all of what you get with the iPhone is pretty much what you are gonna need as a phone and perhaps as you said, GPS. And now with a camera blind people can still MMS pictures to friends or family, having someone take a quick peek at one and tell you what the object is. If they implement an OCR package with their reader that would also be really nice.
Where a computing appliance falls down is where there is no support: I know someone from another country who has asked apple if he can assist them in getting a Braille table into their OS, at least for his customers, because Apple doesn't have one in that language. As an appliance, they say "Oh no, we'll put it on the schedule and we'll implement it." That wouldn't be the case with Windows or Linux because you can as you say stitch it together. Years later, they still don't have a synthesizer or Braille table for that language. That's what you get when you get a closed system like Apple: If it works for you it does. There's no middle ground, no intermediate.
And I know a user of the old OutSpoken system I never had a chance to use (wish I did back when I was deploying the System 7 pieces of shit) but once OS X original came out, he was told Apple had basically eliminated Outspoken from being allowed anymore. He was out a computer for over a year, and when VoiceOver came along it was inferior to OutSpoken. Not so now, of course, it along with their trackpad and gestures is really quite sophisticated. I'm not anti-Apple, but I fear what we have now in the blinkosphere is you all have woken up to Apple and now think they're wonderful for accessibility and don't know about the vaccuous years between your Apple II and VoiceOver.
I had an Apple rep in the 1990s become really resentful of me because I couldn't use a combination of the mouse plus some sort of speech feature, you would grab an icon and drag it to the speaker and it would talk. No, I put the CD in her drive, booted Linux, went to my terminal and logged in as root to fix the problem. Apple used to tout accessibility all the time when it was sensors and switches for mobility impaired. A reader is far more complex.
I don't devalue their efforts, especially the combination VoiceOver, Braille display and trackpad or iPhone / iPad. However I have just seen a rather newborn view of the whole picture in the blinkosphere. You wouldn't know if you hadn't had to deploy the things. And you know, it would have never occurred to me to even approach Apple in any form, due to their stuck-on-themselves attitude. Possibly that's because when it comes to solutions I'm a doer not a talker, but even the NFB couldn't affect them for millennia in milliseconds. That's not a criticism of the NFB, though I'm not affiliated. Apple is, and always has been, what Apple wants to be / what Apple thinks you'll need. And as they say, "You'll like it." And frankly, sometimes we do like it, but they don't have a huge market because they haven't figured out how to be flexible enough to have a huge market. As to no flash on the iPad? I got calls from people whose iPad was stuck, loaded a page they had no idea was all flash, back button was grayed out, 'What do I do?' Why not instead put up a WAP-style page indicating the page you're visiting isn't supported on the iPad, complete with all your browser buttons and the like. Talk about sticking it to the user! And according to Apple, you don't need flash because html 5 is coming out. And frankly Html 5 is gonna be awesome! But, the user doesn't choose: the user visits a page not knowing ahead of time what said page has on it. Now I don't know, maybe the iPad reader handles it better than for sighted people by alerting or something, I have no idea what happens to reader users. But this flash business with Apple has a lot of developers who formerly complained about the idiotic ways in which a lot of people use Flash (you call it inaccessible, most people call it crappy programming most of the time), but now we're in the awkward position of defending flash of all things, because users are using it. That's just it: Apple vs. the rest of the world's computer manufacturers: Apple: tell your users what they can and can't do, why it's a good idea, and why they wouldn't want to do it any other way. The rest of us: Accomodate what the user is already doing with better solutions, enhance their experience, but the user is often the driver, though not exclusively. Now I realize there are lots of places where this breaks down, Office Ribbons are complained of in far more places than the blinkosphere, but the blinkosphere being rather an island calls it inaccessibility while the rest of the universe just says it takes longer for them to get their work done.
That's my feeling on Apple: They're the GE of computers, you get what you get. Problems come like for my friend when they change everything and exclude reader manufacturers so people are out of work for a year, then get an inferior reader. If I ever find the topic he sent me where an Apple employee said blind people don't work and so workplace scenarios aren't a priority, I'll post it here. And, if you don't work, an Apple solution is a great one for us blinks. Or simply if that computer is for recreation, your lap TV and the like. Try doing things as quickly when data processing, answering phones and the like when you have to interact with / stop interacting with every single control before you can use it. The trackpad may take care of some of that, but you get the idea.
I'm not here to make anyone hate Apple, I don't. Sure when they told me their users didn't need to be on networks (and their network support was crap), I wanted to smack them around, but no I don't hate them. However those of you snake-charmed newborn fanboys who woke up one day, saw VoiceOver and nearly shit yourselves with glee, I'll be the bastard that provides a little perspective, so you're aware ahead of time, in case you all face what my friend did. If they come out with a new OS, decide no reader, because a reader would compromise security (that's what they said), or something similar, and you all are out of luck. Say what you will of Windows reader manufacturers both modern and classic, but they were there before Accessibility was a trendy fanboy word. They were there when Rush Limbaugh and your favorite conservative commentators would laugh at the idea of making school computers usable by the blind. They, every one of them from the folks at NVDA and System Access to Go, all the way up to the folks at GW Micro and Freedom Scientific, were there long before 'accessibility' got any sort of press, either as users or developers. Apple wasn't, because those people simply didn't need to use a computer, or maybe couldn't.
What bald-faced company would tell a croud of I.T. professionals who had a bank of Mac users to deploy, that said Mac users didn't need networks? Didn't need access to central data systems like the rest of the population? If they can say it to the general population, they can say it to the blinkosphere. So use it while it works, but things may change.
One point or advice regarding your last post (I like the perspective and am fairly in between the Apple crowd and the anti Apple crowd, if you will, but I am testing out their accessibility as a part of a wider AT solutio sttegy).
There is a third party braille table page for Apple that, supposedly, support refreshable braille with VoiceOver without Apple having to implement the support (according to a reply I got from Apple accessibility, Apple only implements English refreshable braille tables at this time).
I do not have the web page of said third party on this laptop but will post it once I get to my work email.
I emailed them last week about braille support for Icelandic and am awaiting a reply.
Another huge heads up for NVDA, who implemented Icelandic localization in 3 weeks, once me and my colleague agreed to do the translations.
I think open source accessibility is the way to go, and I really think users and organizations should think more about supporting developments of things like NVDA.
I am not bashing FS or GW Micro, I think their software is great and supports the more advanced and technical users, as well as those who prefer their screen readers. But I am extremely impressed with NVDA as a free, open source, solution that brings accessibility to Windows to thousands of new people who could not afford the other technologies.
And it is not half bad either, I am pretty impressed with them so far, given how long they´ve been around and the budget they have to work with.
In addition to NVDA you have the Gnome accessibility Initiative for desktops going forward and this thing is replete with solid concepts from ground up. To be honest, good accessibility implementation most of the time = good architecture in so many ways, that were the detailia published here, many would become bored / write a weird topic about us software gearheads.
But absolutely and profoundly you're right. NVDA can take risks on their package because they don't have enterprise customers to support. Free software always does this, the open source community is unhampered by the commercial contracts which so many software companies that make a living on something other than grants must maintain, unless they simply enslaved rather than employed engineers.
I'm still hopeful on Android, it's open source and has a community of developers so we'll see how the reader turns out in the next version or two. I'm by no means anti-Apple, and as a blind person have deployed them happily for sighted users many times before. However, what I fear is this snake-charmed response some are giving, wanting Apple to become the only solution and the like. Someday, like so many other things, Apple will quit doing access via reader, because like the arrow keys on the original Macintosh computers, they'll decide it's not relevant and remove it. I personally might well make my next expensive computer purchase a Mac for one reason: I can do Fusion plus Windows, and never again need sighted help to manage what I know how to manage, but lack the eyeballs to do it independently. What I mean by that is those fatal errors that rarely happen where you need access via the command prompt from the CD and the like on Windows, no time for an answer file or other automated solution, you don't know what the problem even is there. One really really unbeatable reason to have an iMac or Macbook, silly interact with every single thing you use aside. Windows and Linux will never be there, because they don't control all the device hardware as does Apple.
Oh and with Fusion you can make a multiple set of test beds if so desired, no memorizing keystrokes with a boot manager. Ironically if I weren't a blink I wouldn't consider them, and I won't once they drop their reader, as they've dropped or badly supported so many other things over the years. If any of you all knew me before my knowledge of and entrance into this blinkosphere myspace you'd know my attitude, and that of many others who've tried to fit Apple products into enterprise environments.
But for us now, they have a reader, which hopefully won't go the way of the arrow keys in the first couple generations of Macintosh computers - done to prove a point.
The site for Mbraille support for VoiceOver is
http://www.cecimac.org/english.htm
I got an immediate response and sent a file with the unicode, dot configuration and name of characgter in the language required and they will include it in the next version of their software, due out in a few weeks.
I cannot vouch for the quality of this product yet, but I had a very fast and friendly response so I am encouraged.
Those of you looking for foreign language braille support for the Mac you can look at this page.
I agree that you generally only see vehement pro or anti Apple opinions rather than a more objective evaluation. I elieve Macs are very much a part of today's mix of accessibility solutions, and one must view it as such. These solutions change tomorrow, next month, next year, and we must constantly be on the lookout and mov with the times.
Apple is doing pioneer work in use of gestures to interact with the applications and are the only company really taking leadership in that area right now, and should be applauded for that. Of course the approach is hit and miss, but it seems to be working fairly well. Apple is also, hopefully, setting the trend in building accessibility into mainstream applications, whether they drop this later or not one can only hope this sets and example for other software companies to, at least, be more open to working with accessibility experts, be it on an inclusive O.S. or product or to allow easier access for third party apps offering accessibility.
I must applaud Apple fotr this work, at this point in time, without offering an opinion on their past or their future, and also with full understanding that they are but one solution of many, and only suitable for certain people or groups.
I want an IPhone but I have little or no desire to get a Mac, for instance.
Open source is another thing. We are trying to test Orca on Ubuntu and the soundcard disappears periodically with no explanation. Fundamental problems such as this makes that configuration completely unusable for non pro users, as of right now. Linux has come a long way in this from a couple of years ago, but they do not seem to be there yet, as a system must be reliable and rock solid for a user who wants to do 2 or 3 things and not understand how a computer works.
The upside to open source, be it linux, nvda etc, is that you can undertake work yourself to achieve your goals. We translated NVDA into Icelandic in 2 weeks, compiled the translation file and sent it back, it was included the day after, and now NVDA ships with Icelandic. I have been trying to get Freedom Scientific to do the same for 2 years and unless they see a sales increase, which they won't in a relatively tiny country, there is no interest in translating the software, not even if we offer to do it ourselves for free.
If we learn better braille support, or obtain funding, we mean to pressure for additional braille functionality in NVDA, and they have been in communication with us in that regard and we like the fact the developers are involved in discussions. There is also a fairly big market of research project funding in the Open Source area, and the beauty of open source is that the code can be modified or used as basis for other things and, thus, even if current supporters quit supporting it, the code is out there for anyone who wants to cintue. But it is this mix of having to do work and certain uncertainty about support and future developments that makes open source not the most desireable single approach, especially for enterprise customers.
And then there's the typical screen readers with a lot of tradition, users who are used to it, fairly loyal customer base and the most advanced technologies, such as braille, specialized support for certain software, scriptable to fit specialized needs. They charge for this, I think they charge too much, but I am glad they are there and available, because there are cases which clearly call for the power of Jaws or Window Eyes.
I have been extremely unimpressed with Google's accessibility initiatives so far, and this worries me, because I think they want to become a big player in the software and computer market. I hope that section 508 will be a sufficient incentive for them to kickstart development and become more accessible, because I like a lot of the things they are doing, such as Google Dox, the thin client approach, the online integration so you do not have to worry about your hardware when you are travelling, your files are stored in a cloud somewhere.
This is the whole sphere of solutions I see currently.
I like Apple for their innovation of user interface, I am excited about the possibility of braille displays being recognized natively in Windows without the need for writing all these specialized drivers, I believe it is an initiative led by HandyTech called Open Braille, I am excited by the Pef file format for braille embossers, sort of the pdf of braille, where you can create a braille file that embosses on identically on any device, regardless of its language and braille setting, I like the convertion to Daisy and one source, though it certainly has its problems, I like the Aegis project and accessibility work on Open Office that is going on that should simplify Daisy book creation and braille support for Open Office, so there is a lot to be excited about.
Bit of a bump here, but has accessibility changed in android 2.2? You can get some really cheap tablets running android which I'd be interested in trying.
It has not really changed. I use an Android phone, and I range from very happy to wanting to throw it against the wall, depending on the day.
I appreciate those who post here who have droid OS based phones, soon when the time comes, I iwll have to make a decision, jump ship with a windows phone then I will have to figure what to do next. So far I will probly buy my friends Iphone off him and port it to T-mobile. then by by mobile speak4.
I'd have to agree with Jesse, there are days where it does what I want it to do, and others where I've listed it up on craigslist for sale! If the new tablets have no full keyboard or access via bluetooth then forget it, there is no access to touch screen features at all. Unless you count the eyes free shell which is googles attempt at some sort `of touch screen access, I'd say they missed the boat on that one!
They totally missed the boat. They have a golden opportunity to get it right, but unfortunately, the accessibility api's aren't system-wide. You have to incorporate them in apps themselves, which is a real downer. This is the biggest opstacle to accessibility on the platform.
What about getting an Android phone with a keyboard and rooting it to use it as a wireless router with an Ipod touch? I'm considering doing this since Sprint has better deals then ATT, I'd use the phone for phone stuff including texting, talking, and any apps that happened to be accessible. I'd use the Ipod for other things that require an internet connection but don't have accesible android equivilents. This assumes that using the phone as a wireless router after rooting is accessible.
Just picked up an android tablet. It's called an ePad which reminds me of another product a bit, but I can't think which one.
£130 for the tablet and £20 for a case with a keyboard. If it's crap I'll just sell it, or, someones managed to install debian on it so I could have a fairly functional laptop type device for £150.
Specs are 1ghz, 256mb ddr2, 2gb internal nand plus sd and micro sd slots, 10.1 screen, ethernet and wifi. Was hoping that the ram would be upgradable but from what I've read it's soldered onto the board. I'll be taking it apart anyway so I guess I'll find out.
So, my android tablet came today at last. I think I'm going to need some eyes to get it talking, but I can tell that it does at least turn on; it feels pretty sexy too.
Anyone got any tips for anew talkback user? I've done some googling and it sounds like android accessibility is truly terrible.
if u are gonna do that why not skyp the phone get an iPod touch and a virgin mobile unlimited wi fi (no 5GB cap on this one) it runs on the sprint network, and get a iPod touch running skype with skype out and google voice